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Cronyism

Re: Cronyism

Postby jeng on Thu May 08, 2008 3:29 pm

No, I mean condemned as in personal attacks and people stopped talking to me. I don't think that is being "challenged." Personally (and this is personal in every sense of the word), my life is better under GW and I admire him as a person. I think he is flawed and made mistakes, but I agree with the war (Dh is active duty) in Afghanistan, think the intelligence was flawed for Iraq (not just ours either), think it is a moot point now as you can't stomp all over a country then just turn and walk away, and hope MacCain wins the next election. I am volunteering for his campaign. I am not asking anyone to debate me on this, there is no source for those views except for myself. I have my reasons, as I am sure everyone has theirs for pulling for the other side.

I am not afraid of being challenged. I have lived in various places, been exposed to and friends with lots of different people of lots of different backgrounds and religious views. I respect the views of others and the right to disagree. What I don't appreciate are blatantly rude and sarcastic remarks that attack people on a personal level. Some people are incapable of keeping things civil, which is why I am done here.
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Re: Cronyism

Postby cnnplus5 on Thu May 08, 2008 3:41 pm

Some people are incapable of keeping things civil, which is why I am done here.


I agree Jeng - which is why this has been a complete waste of time!
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Re: Cronyism

Postby Nascargirl on Thu May 08, 2008 4:16 pm

Jeng I find that so interesting, you are one of only a few people I have "met" that feel that way. I don't agree but it is interesting to hear the other side of the coin. I for one pray that McCain does not get in, I just can't take another 4 years of living this way.
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Re: Cronyism

Postby blessedx3 on Thu May 08, 2008 4:33 pm

Nascargirl wrote:Jeng I find that so interesting, you are one of only a few people I have "met" that feel that way. I don't agree but it is interesting to hear the other side of the coin. I for one pray that McCain does not get in, I just can't take another 4 years of living this way.


I wonder if the reason she seems like one of only a few is because you are surrounded by those who share your views. This isn't meant to sound condescending, it is just that we tend to surround ourselves IRL with those who share our views. In my IRL world, the anti-war view is of the minority. I am sure this is because most of my IRL are alot like me. Most attend my church or are family. On this board there are several moms who share JENG's views (amd obviously several who don't). Some of us keep silent because we just really don't like debating..some of us are quiet because JENG is eloquent enough for us. Several of us support her view and just do it silently...I try to support her view when she posts because her views are very like mine..however it seems whenever I type, the words come out wrong...
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Re: Cronyism

Postby Nascargirl on Thu May 08, 2008 4:40 pm

Well that could be true but I am talking about where ever I go, I just rarely hear anyone speak on his behalf. This is a hot topic right now, it is on everyone's mind at school, gymnastics, sports. I hard people talking and very few have anything nice to say about the man.
Of course Democrats are sexy, who ever heard of a nice piece of elephant!

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Re: Cronyism

Postby jeng on Thu May 08, 2008 6:06 pm

I think that Blessed is pretty correct about the people in our lives. Very few of the people I hang out with hate GW (primarily other military families). (In fact, I can't think of even one at this time). Even those who are dissatisfied with some of his choices (read Rumsfeld) still respect him as President and an individual. However, when I am around others who dislike him, I am probably not going to say anything because those people are so vehement in their views that they can be pretty nasty to those who support him. So it is not worth the pain of explaining why I support him. Mostly, they don't want to hear it. So it is possible that there are people you know who support him and the war, they just don't say anything. Just a possibility. I have no way of knowing this for certain.

(See, this is nice, no personal attacks, just a discussion)
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Re: Cronyism

Postby epv5 on Thu May 08, 2008 8:39 pm

Hey Blessedx3! Just an observation: I found it interesting that you pointed out that most of your crowd is not anti-war and you included your church friends in that category. I don't know if you ever listen to KCUR, but Adam Hamilton, the pastor of Church of the Resurrection in Leawood (huge United Methodist church for those not aware of it) was the guest on Up to Date w/ Steve Kratzke yesterday. It was a very interesting conversation because he talked about "just war" Christians and Christians who are anti-war, he himself being against this war, but respecting that a good portion of his congregation did not feel this way( I don't know the exact percentage for and against, but a noticeable number all the same). Do I have a point to this observation? Maybe not except that I would say that many churchgoing folks are anti-war. I, myself, attend a church that is part of an evangelical denomination and I'd say we're a pretty mixed bag on this issue and others. My father, for instance, is a veteran of Vietnam and has very negative feelings toward this war, born of personal experience, no doubt. I think it's safe to say that enough vets of Iraq and Afghanistan have been vocally opposed to this war that we must, if not agree w/ them, at least recognize that their concerns are as valid as the support that those like Jeng's husband have for this war. I guess what I inferred from your post (Yes, I know what they say about assuming) is that more church goers are for the war because they are somewhat stereotypically more conservative and I just wouldn't want to be painted w/ too broad a brush. By the way, while I'm sure we do not hold the same political views, I respect your views on religion,politics,what color the sky is, your favorite flavor of ice cream,etc,etc. :)
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Re: Cronyism

Postby swissmom on Fri May 09, 2008 8:59 am

I'd also just like to add that the Vietnam war has tainted a whole generation of people who are locked into the view that you cannot separate the soldier from the war. When all those young people went out into a war that we should not have been involved in, they came home to heartbreaking agression even in their own families. HEARTBREAKING. "Baby killers, murderers...etc...all that s**t. I didn't see that in a movie. I remember it. A lot of it. One that stands out is when a hippy asshole, yes I said it, SPIT on a woman in the grocery store parking lot...and that woman had her crippled husband (or son, I'm not sure which) in her arms, lifting him from his wheelchair to the passenger seat. I'll never forget it. And nobody reacted, I'll never forget that either.... and nobody offered to help her lift her husband. It was crowded. Really, I will never forget that. After what those SOLDIERS (not troops) had been through and after having made that sacrifice for their countrymen and women, they were treated as if they embodied el diablo himself. Unreal. For many, who have loved ones in Iraq, or Afghanistan, I think it's important to support WHY your wife or husband or brother, sister, son, daughter etc..are there fighting. If not, a gut wrenching knock at the door would feel like a life taken away in vain. I think we, the families in America, with or without loved ones in battle have learned a very valueable lesson from Vietnam. I think we CAN separate the soldier and his sacrifices, from the commander in chief and his choices. I pray, and I mean, really PRAY for those men and women who are over there surviving and believing in their cause. I hate that they (not "we", becasue I'm not there) are there, and I dislike the man and his ignorance that put your loved ones in harms way. I would never, ever, in a million years judge a person for fighting for their country. I can however differentiate and wish public and private accountability for the man in charge, who has made fatal errors and can sleep at night knowing that he will never get that knock at the door. He's never been in battle either, so has no awareness of the reality of war, one second at a time. Everytime I read on this site about a mom who has a husband in Iraq, I admire that mom for the mere fact that I can't even begin to know her sacrifices. I bitch about my mortgage etc..and those things are real too, but it's a different kind of real. Yes, I'm a "liberal", left, bleeder, whatever you want to call it.....but I'm also a woman who wants the same things for my family that everybody wants. Peace. That's our commonality. By judging the war, and being against it, I'm not against anyones husband or father or loved one who is there fighting it. I hope every single person who has been deployed walks back in your door with as little pain as possible....but I think the man who sent him/her there in the first place should answer to the lives he HAS ruined.
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Re: Cronyism

Postby blessedx3 on Fri May 09, 2008 10:38 am

erinpaigevaughn-

I most certainly did not intend to assume that Christians are pro-war and non-Christians are anti-war. I was just pointing to MY circle of IRL friends. I completely agree that many Christians are anti-war...and many are Democrats. Totally was not trying to infer otherwise. Sorry for the mis understanding....I was just saying that MY circle of friends was basically my church friends and my family. I do not "hang" out with alot of other friends. I failed to include those I work with daily and they are also mainly Republicans...most are not anti-war, but several do disagree with how this war has been handled. I am not anti-war. I feel we had good reasons for this war, but I am unhappy on how long it is taking and the division it is causing in my country. However, I also am not military and have idea of how to conduct a "proper" war...so my idea of options is limited...
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Re: Cronyism

Postby epv5 on Fri May 09, 2008 12:34 pm

There's probably no proper way to conduct a war, given that those harmed often include civilians who usually have nothing to do w/ their government's policies, IMHO. I do think that there have been "just wars" such as WWII and the Civil War. (I'm sure there are others, but 2 of the kids are playing rollercoaster down the steps on a sleeping bag and I'm sure "injuries" will ensue shortly). I know you didn't mean to infer that Christians tend to be pro-war, just wanted to clear that up in case anyone thought you meant that. Probably not necessary on my part, I just thought it was serendipitous that the topic on Up to Date had been about pro-war and anti-war Christians sharing the same house of worship. I am willing to bet that my opinions are in the minority at my own church, but because grace and freedom are such core values, I've never been made to feel in the minority. I also belive most people are probably pretty moderate, so I think we agree on more things than we even realize.
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